[Cialug] Promotion and Faith. (Was RE: A little something for everyone)

Sun Mar 6 09:55:51 CST 2011

I am very sorry. This was supposed to be off list. Evidently there is a
bug in Thunderbird 3 where both "Reply" and "Reply List" buttons send to
the same place.

Jeff

On 3/5/2011 11:11 PM, Jeff Chapin wrote:
> Josh,
>
> Replying off list -- but I personally see no difference between
> Barry's post, and one saying that he will only work with white people
> (or African American), or straight people.  Religion is not really a
> matter of choice for many -- I could not 'choose' to believe in
> religion any more than I could 'choose' to the color of my skin.
>
> I'm less concerned that 4 of the 5 posts made by Brian Wood were plugs
> for his project (and the fifth still had it prominently displayed),
> than I am with the bigotry inherent in 2 of his 5 posts.
>
> I'll abide by your decisions, and I understand that as a mailing-list
> only member of your lug (living in CF, it is hard to attend meetings)
> my opinions carry little weight, but as a member since 09/2005 of the
> mailing list, this is only the second time I have seen a post
> deliberately exclusionary to one group of people.  This is not dirty
> laundry I want to keep drumming up in the channel, but I felt you
> should know that at least one member was made uncomfortable with
> intolerant topics like this. My religious background has not come up
> on this mailing list before, as I do not feel it is appropriate -- or
> anyone else's business.
>
>
> Wishing you all the best --
> Jeff
>
> On 3/5/2011 5:40 PM, Josh More wrote:
>> There has been a bit of discussion about this post privately, and I
>> wanted to address some things before folks got back to work on Monday
>> and began reacting en masse.
>>
>> For many of us, it was unclear that the original post was promoting
>> an open source project.  In fact, it looked a lot like a commercial
>> posting.  However, after digging through the linked page a bit, it
>> became clear that the application is free to use and the source is
>> available.  Thus, though it triggered a "this is spam" response in
>> many of us, I am not comfortable declaring this post to be spam. 
>> After all, if promoting an open source project that is not directly
>> Linux-related were an issue, a LOT of us would be in trouble here.  :)
>>
>> However, the faith issue is a problematic one.  I've been thinking
>> about it for hours, and I think I've uncovered what the fundamental
>> issue here is.  Our group is about open source software and open
>> source ideals.  We tend to not directly discuss the ideals very
>> often, but they're there nonetheless.  I think that what bothered me
>> the most about this wasn't the clear faith-based slant, but the
>> segmentation of society.  I believe that the intent here was to say
>> that original poster was willing to work on other projects, but is
>> unwilling to devote his personal time to someone that does not share
>> his personal beliefs.  That's fine.  However, the "us vs them" where
>> one side gets time and support and the other side gets cash seems
>> counter to the inclusiveness of our group.
>>
>> From an administrative perspective, I will not be banning Brian for
>> spamming, as this seems to be less an issue of spam and more an issue
>> of a confusingly-worded promotion of an open source project. 
>> However, I will ask that future postings of this nature keep the
>> following in mind:
>>
>> * Projects are promoted more effectively when it is clear what the
>> project does, how it is used and where the source code may be
>> downloaded.  Use cases help here.
>>
>> * When offering your time to something, make mention of your own
>> skillset and what you bring to a project.  I would rather have 2h per
>> week of someone highly skilled than 20h per week of someone who is
>> not.  There are projects that are benefited by people of all skill
>> levels and those that are not. 
>>
>> * Start with a discussion about needs instead of just offering time. 
>> It helps both the project maintainers and those serving as resources
>> to know up-front what is needed.  That way people are working to
>> improve the project, not working just to work.
>>
>> * While faith can be a very important part of the human experience,
>> recognize and accept that others may have faiths of a different
>> varieties and intensities than you do.  This group, in particular, is
>> made of people who are intensely Christian, Atheist and Pagan.  We
>> have a lot of people who are Agnostic and we probably have many whose
>> faiths of which I know nothing.  What we have in common is tolerance
>> and acceptance.  While this post was not evangelical in nature, it
>> was far closer than we usually see here, and it tripped some people's
>> hot buttons.  I recognize that we are a self-managed group and I
>> cannot set policy that goes against group consensus, but my reading
>> of general group consensus is that there is a line between expressing
>> one's faith as part of daily life and doing so in an "in your face"
>> sort of way that makes other feel uncomfortable.  If a discussion
>> crosses that line and makes others uncomfortable, the admins will
>> take action.
>>
>> So, that said, if someone wishes to make a post like this in the
>> future, it may be wise to run it past one of the admins.  On the
>> mailing list, Kevin and I are the admins (we're looking for others
>> ;).  In IRC, just ask (we're not all opped all the time).  We'd be
>> glad to help you tune your message to minimize disruption of the
>> community and maximize the achieving of your goals.
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Josh More | Senior Security Consultant - CISSP, GIAC-GSLC Gold, GIAC-GCIH
>> Alliance Technologies | www.AllianceTechnologies.net
>> <http://www.AllianceTechnologies.net>
>> 400 Locust St., Suite 840 | Des Moines, IA 50309
>> 515.245.7701 | 888.387.5670 x7701
>>
>> Blog: Don't just blame the bad guys, it's your fault too
>> http://www.alliancetechnologies.net/blogs/morej
>>
>> How are we doing? Let us know here:
>> http://www.alliancetechnologies.net/forms/alliance-technologies-feedback-survey
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* cialug-bounces at cialug.org [cialug-bounces at cialug.org] on
>> behalf of Brian Wood [woodbrian77 at gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* Saturday, March 05, 2011 12:17
>> *To:* cialug at cialug.org
>> *Subject:* [Cialug] A little something for everyone
>>
>>
>> I'm looking to partner with G-dly people willing to use the
>> C++ Middleware Writer -- an on line code generator that
>> writes C++ marshalling code based on high-level user input. 
>> In exchange for using the C++ Middleware Writer, I'll donate
>> 18 hours/week for six months to their project.  If you aren't
>> an orthodox Jew or pro-life Christian, you can still get in on
>> the action.  If you refer someone to me for this, I'll pay you
>> $150/month for the first four months I work with them.
>>
>> -- 
>> Brian Wood
>> Ebenezer Enterprises
>> http://webEbenezer.net
>> (651) 251-9384
>>
>>
>> "And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season
>> we shall reap if we do not lose heart.  Therefore, as we have
>> opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of
>> the household of faith."  Galatians 6:9-11
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Cialug mailing list
>> Cialug at cialug.org
>> http://cialug.org/mailman/listinfo/cialug
>

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