[Cialug] Promotion and Faith. (Was RE: A little something for everyone)

Sat Mar 5 23:11:24 CST 2011

Josh,

Replying off list -- but I personally see no difference between Barry's
post, and one saying that he will only work with white people (or
African American), or straight people.  Religion is not really a matter
of choice for many -- I could not 'choose' to believe in religion any
more than I could 'choose' to the color of my skin.

I'm less concerned that 4 of the 5 posts made by Brian Wood were plugs
for his project (and the fifth still had it prominently displayed), than
I am with the bigotry inherent in 2 of his 5 posts.

I'll abide by your decisions, and I understand that as a mailing-list
only member of your lug (living in CF, it is hard to attend meetings) my
opinions carry little weight, but as a member since 09/2005 of the
mailing list, this is only the second time I have seen a post
deliberately exclusionary to one group of people.  This is not dirty
laundry I want to keep drumming up in the channel, but I felt you should
know that at least one member was made uncomfortable with intolerant
topics like this. My religious background has not come up on this
mailing list before, as I do not feel it is appropriate -- or anyone
else's business.

Wishing you all the best --
Jeff

On 3/5/2011 5:40 PM, Josh More wrote:
> There has been a bit of discussion about this post privately, and I
> wanted to address some things before folks got back to work on Monday
> and began reacting en masse.
>
> For many of us, it was unclear that the original post was promoting an
> open source project.  In fact, it looked a lot like a commercial
> posting.  However, after digging through the linked page a bit, it
> became clear that the application is free to use and the source is
> available.  Thus, though it triggered a "this is spam" response in
> many of us, I am not comfortable declaring this post to be spam. 
> After all, if promoting an open source project that is not directly
> Linux-related were an issue, a LOT of us would be in trouble here.  :)
>
> However, the faith issue is a problematic one.  I've been thinking
> about it for hours, and I think I've uncovered what the fundamental
> issue here is.  Our group is about open source software and open
> source ideals.  We tend to not directly discuss the ideals very often,
> but they're there nonetheless.  I think that what bothered me the most
> about this wasn't the clear faith-based slant, but the segmentation of
> society.  I believe that the intent here was to say that original
> poster was willing to work on other projects, but is unwilling to
> devote his personal time to someone that does not share his personal
> beliefs.  That's fine.  However, the "us vs them" where one side gets
> time and support and the other side gets cash seems counter to the
> inclusiveness of our group.
>
> From an administrative perspective, I will not be banning Brian for
> spamming, as this seems to be less an issue of spam and more an issue
> of a confusingly-worded promotion of an open source project.  However,
> I will ask that future postings of this nature keep the following in mind:
>
> * Projects are promoted more effectively when it is clear what the
> project does, how it is used and where the source code may be
> downloaded.  Use cases help here.
>
> * When offering your time to something, make mention of your own
> skillset and what you bring to a project.  I would rather have 2h per
> week of someone highly skilled than 20h per week of someone who is
> not.  There are projects that are benefited by people of all skill
> levels and those that are not. 
>
> * Start with a discussion about needs instead of just offering time. 
> It helps both the project maintainers and those serving as resources
> to know up-front what is needed.  That way people are working to
> improve the project, not working just to work.
>
> * While faith can be a very important part of the human experience,
> recognize and accept that others may have faiths of a different
> varieties and intensities than you do.  This group, in particular, is
> made of people who are intensely Christian, Atheist and Pagan.  We
> have a lot of people who are Agnostic and we probably have many whose
> faiths of which I know nothing.  What we have in common is tolerance
> and acceptance.  While this post was not evangelical in nature, it was
> far closer than we usually see here, and it tripped some people's hot
> buttons.  I recognize that we are a self-managed group and I cannot
> set policy that goes against group consensus, but my reading of
> general group consensus is that there is a line between expressing
> one's faith as part of daily life and doing so in an "in your face"
> sort of way that makes other feel uncomfortable.  If a discussion
> crosses that line and makes others uncomfortable, the admins will take
> action.
>
> So, that said, if someone wishes to make a post like this in the
> future, it may be wise to run it past one of the admins.  On the
> mailing list, Kevin and I are the admins (we're looking for others
> ;).  In IRC, just ask (we're not all opped all the time).  We'd be
> glad to help you tune your message to minimize disruption of the
> community and maximize the achieving of your goals.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Josh More | Senior Security Consultant - CISSP, GIAC-GSLC Gold, GIAC-GCIH
> Alliance Technologies | www.AllianceTechnologies.net
> <http://www.AllianceTechnologies.net>
> 400 Locust St., Suite 840 | Des Moines, IA 50309
> 515.245.7701 | 888.387.5670 x7701
>
> Blog: Don't just blame the bad guys, it's your fault too
> http://www.alliancetechnologies.net/blogs/morej
>
> How are we doing? Let us know here:
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* cialug-bounces at cialug.org [cialug-bounces at cialug.org] on
> behalf of Brian Wood [woodbrian77 at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 05, 2011 12:17
> *To:* cialug at cialug.org
> *Subject:* [Cialug] A little something for everyone
>
>
> I'm looking to partner with G-dly people willing to use the
> C++ Middleware Writer -- an on line code generator that
> writes C++ marshalling code based on high-level user input. 
> In exchange for using the C++ Middleware Writer, I'll donate
> 18 hours/week for six months to their project.  If you aren't
> an orthodox Jew or pro-life Christian, you can still get in on
> the action.  If you refer someone to me for this, I'll pay you
> $150/month for the first four months I work with them.
>
> -- 
> Brian Wood
> Ebenezer Enterprises
> http://webEbenezer.net
> (651) 251-9384
>
>
> "And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season
> we shall reap if we do not lose heart.  Therefore, as we have
> opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of
> the household of faith."  Galatians 6:9-11
>
>
>
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> Cialug at cialug.org
> http://cialug.org/mailman/listinfo/cialug

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