[Cialug] Promotion and Faith. (Was RE: A little something for everyone)

Sun Mar 6 18:11:55 CST 2011

To clarify some off-list confusion, the apology was for sending this to
a public list and accidentally fanning the flames, and not for what I
said. I believe what I said, and stand by it -- but regret the method
they took.

Jeff

On 3/6/2011 9:55 AM, Jeff Chapin wrote:
> I am very sorry. This was supposed to be off list. Evidently there is
> a bug in Thunderbird 3 where both "Reply" and "Reply List" buttons
> send to the same place.
>
> Jeff
>
> On 3/5/2011 11:11 PM, Jeff Chapin wrote:
>> Josh,
>>
>> Replying off list -- but I personally see no difference between
>> Barry's post, and one saying that he will only work with white people
>> (or African American), or straight people.  Religion is not really a
>> matter of choice for many -- I could not 'choose' to believe in
>> religion any more than I could 'choose' to the color of my skin.
>>
>> I'm less concerned that 4 of the 5 posts made by Brian Wood were
>> plugs for his project (and the fifth still had it prominently
>> displayed), than I am with the bigotry inherent in 2 of his 5 posts.
>>
>> I'll abide by your decisions, and I understand that as a mailing-list
>> only member of your lug (living in CF, it is hard to attend meetings)
>> my opinions carry little weight, but as a member since 09/2005 of the
>> mailing list, this is only the second time I have seen a post
>> deliberately exclusionary to one group of people.  This is not dirty
>> laundry I want to keep drumming up in the channel, but I felt you
>> should know that at least one member was made uncomfortable with
>> intolerant topics like this. My religious background has not come up
>> on this mailing list before, as I do not feel it is appropriate -- or
>> anyone else's business.
>>
>>
>> Wishing you all the best --
>> Jeff
>>
>> On 3/5/2011 5:40 PM, Josh More wrote:
>>> There has been a bit of discussion about this post privately, and I
>>> wanted to address some things before folks got back to work on
>>> Monday and began reacting en masse.
>>>
>>> For many of us, it was unclear that the original post was promoting
>>> an open source project.  In fact, it looked a lot like a commercial
>>> posting.  However, after digging through the linked page a bit, it
>>> became clear that the application is free to use and the source is
>>> available.  Thus, though it triggered a "this is spam" response in
>>> many of us, I am not comfortable declaring this post to be spam. 
>>> After all, if promoting an open source project that is not directly
>>> Linux-related were an issue, a LOT of us would be in trouble here.  :)
>>>
>>> However, the faith issue is a problematic one.  I've been thinking
>>> about it for hours, and I think I've uncovered what the fundamental
>>> issue here is.  Our group is about open source software and open
>>> source ideals.  We tend to not directly discuss the ideals very
>>> often, but they're there nonetheless.  I think that what bothered me
>>> the most about this wasn't the clear faith-based slant, but the
>>> segmentation of society.  I believe that the intent here was to say
>>> that original poster was willing to work on other projects, but is
>>> unwilling to devote his personal time to someone that does not share
>>> his personal beliefs.  That's fine.  However, the "us vs them" where
>>> one side gets time and support and the other side gets cash seems
>>> counter to the inclusiveness of our group.
>>>
>>> From an administrative perspective, I will not be banning Brian for
>>> spamming, as this seems to be less an issue of spam and more an
>>> issue of a confusingly-worded promotion of an open source project. 
>>> However, I will ask that future postings of this nature keep the
>>> following in mind:
>>>
>>> * Projects are promoted more effectively when it is clear what the
>>> project does, how it is used and where the source code may be
>>> downloaded.  Use cases help here.
>>>
>>> * When offering your time to something, make mention of your own
>>> skillset and what you bring to a project.  I would rather have 2h
>>> per week of someone highly skilled than 20h per week of someone who
>>> is not.  There are projects that are benefited by people of all
>>> skill levels and those that are not. 
>>>
>>> * Start with a discussion about needs instead of just offering
>>> time.  It helps both the project maintainers and those serving as
>>> resources to know up-front what is needed.  That way people are
>>> working to improve the project, not working just to work.
>>>
>>> * While faith can be a very important part of the human experience,
>>> recognize and accept that others may have faiths of a different
>>> varieties and intensities than you do.  This group, in particular,
>>> is made of people who are intensely Christian, Atheist and Pagan. 
>>> We have a lot of people who are Agnostic and we probably have many
>>> whose faiths of which I know nothing.  What we have in common is
>>> tolerance and acceptance.  While this post was not evangelical in
>>> nature, it was far closer than we usually see here, and it tripped
>>> some people's hot buttons.  I recognize that we are a self-managed
>>> group and I cannot set policy that goes against group consensus, but
>>> my reading of general group consensus is that there is a line
>>> between expressing one's faith as part of daily life and doing so in
>>> an "in your face" sort of way that makes other feel uncomfortable. 
>>> If a discussion crosses that line and makes others uncomfortable,
>>> the admins will take action.
>>>
>>> So, that said, if someone wishes to make a post like this in the
>>> future, it may be wise to run it past one of the admins.  On the
>>> mailing list, Kevin and I are the admins (we're looking for others
>>> ;).  In IRC, just ask (we're not all opped all the time).  We'd be
>>> glad to help you tune your message to minimize disruption of the
>>> community and maximize the achieving of your goals.
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>>
>>> Josh More | Senior Security Consultant - CISSP, GIAC-GSLC Gold,
>>> GIAC-GCIH
>>> Alliance Technologies | www.AllianceTechnologies.net
>>> <http://www.AllianceTechnologies.net>
>>> 400 Locust St., Suite 840 | Des Moines, IA 50309
>>> 515.245.7701 | 888.387.5670 x7701
>>>
>>> Blog: Don't just blame the bad guys, it's your fault too
>>> http://www.alliancetechnologies.net/blogs/morej
>>>
>>> How are we doing? Let us know here:
>>> http://www.alliancetechnologies.net/forms/alliance-technologies-feedback-survey
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* cialug-bounces at cialug.org [cialug-bounces at cialug.org] on
>>> behalf of Brian Wood [woodbrian77 at gmail.com]
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, March 05, 2011 12:17
>>> *To:* cialug at cialug.org
>>> *Subject:* [Cialug] A little something for everyone
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm looking to partner with G-dly people willing to use the
>>> C++ Middleware Writer -- an on line code generator that
>>> writes C++ marshalling code based on high-level user input. 
>>> In exchange for using the C++ Middleware Writer, I'll donate
>>> 18 hours/week for six months to their project.  If you aren't
>>> an orthodox Jew or pro-life Christian, you can still get in on
>>> the action.  If you refer someone to me for this, I'll pay you
>>> $150/month for the first four months I work with them.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Brian Wood
>>> Ebenezer Enterprises
>>> http://webEbenezer.net
>>> (651) 251-9384
>>>
>>>
>>> "And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season
>>> we shall reap if we do not lose heart.  Therefore, as we have
>>> opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of
>>> the household of faith."  Galatians 6:9-11
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Cialug mailing list
>>> Cialug at cialug.org
>>> http://cialug.org/mailman/listinfo/cialug
>>
>

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