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To clarify some off-list confusion, the apology was for sending this
to a public list and accidentally fanning the flames, and not for
what I said. I believe what I said, and stand by it -- but regret
the method they took.<br>
<br>
Jeff<br>
<br>
On 3/6/2011 9:55 AM, Jeff Chapin wrote:
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I am very sorry. This was supposed to be off list. Evidently there
is a bug in Thunderbird 3 where both "Reply" and "Reply List"
buttons send to the same place. <br>
<br>
Jeff<br>
<br>
On 3/5/2011 11:11 PM, Jeff Chapin wrote:
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Josh,<br>
<br>
Replying off list -- but I personally see no difference between
Barry's post, and one saying that he will only work with white
people (or African American), or straight people. Religion is
not really a matter of choice for many -- I could not 'choose'
to believe in religion any more than I could 'choose' to the
color of my skin. <br>
<br>
I'm less concerned that 4 of the 5 posts made by Brian Wood were
plugs for his project (and the fifth still had it prominently
displayed), than I am with the bigotry inherent in 2 of his 5
posts.<br>
<br>
I'll abide by your decisions, and I understand that as a
mailing-list only member of your lug (living in CF, it is hard
to attend meetings) my opinions carry little weight, but as a
member since 09/2005 of the mailing list, this is only the
second time I have seen a post deliberately exclusionary to one
group of people. This is not dirty laundry I want to keep
drumming up in the channel, but I felt you should know that at
least one member was made uncomfortable with intolerant topics
like this. My religious background has not come up on this
mailing list before, as I do not feel it is appropriate -- or
anyone else's business.<br>
<br>
<br>
Wishing you all the best --<br>
Jeff<br>
<br>
On 3/5/2011 5:40 PM, Josh More wrote:
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<div style="">There has been a bit of discussion about this
post privately, and I wanted to address some things before
folks got back to work on Monday and began reacting en
masse.<br>
<br>
For many of us, it was unclear that the original post was
promoting an open source project. In fact, it looked a
lot like a commercial posting. However, after digging
through the linked page a bit, it became clear that the
application is free to use and the source is available.
Thus, though it triggered a "this is spam" response in
many of us, I am not comfortable declaring this post to be
spam. After all, if promoting an open source project that
is not directly Linux-related were an issue, a LOT of us
would be in trouble here. :)<br>
<br>
However, the faith issue is a problematic one. I've been
thinking about it for hours, and I think I've uncovered
what the fundamental issue here is. Our group is about
open source software and open source ideals. We tend to
not directly discuss the ideals very often, but they're
there nonetheless. I think that what bothered me the most
about this wasn't the clear faith-based slant, but the
segmentation of society. I believe that the intent here
was to say that original poster was willing to work on
other projects, but is unwilling to devote his personal
time to someone that does not share his personal beliefs.
That's fine. However, the "us vs them" where one side
gets time and support and the other side gets cash seems
counter to the inclusiveness of our group.<br>
<br>
From an administrative perspective, I will not be banning
Brian for spamming, as this seems to be less an issue of
spam and more an issue of a confusingly-worded promotion
of an open source project. However, I will ask that
future postings of this nature keep the following in mind:<br>
<br>
* Projects are promoted more effectively when it is clear
what the project does, how it is used and where the source
code may be downloaded. Use cases help here.<br>
<br>
* When offering your time to something, make mention of
your own skillset and what you bring to a project. I
would rather have 2h per week of someone highly skilled
than 20h per week of someone who is not. There are
projects that are benefited by people of all skill levels
and those that are not. <br>
<br>
* Start with a discussion about needs instead of just
offering time. It helps both the project maintainers and
those serving as resources to know up-front what is
needed. That way people are working to improve the
project, not working just to work.<br>
<br>
* While faith can be a very important part of the human
experience, recognize and accept that others may have
faiths of a different varieties and intensities than you
do. This group, in particular, is made of people who are
intensely Christian, Atheist and Pagan. We have a lot of
people who are Agnostic and we probably have many whose
faiths of which I know nothing. What we have in common is
tolerance and acceptance. While this post was not
evangelical in nature, it was far closer than we usually
see here, and it tripped some people's hot buttons. I
recognize that we are a self-managed group and I cannot
set policy that goes against group consensus, but my
reading of general group consensus is that there is a line
between expressing one's faith as part of daily life and
doing so in an "in your face" sort of way that makes other
feel uncomfortable. If a discussion crosses that line and
makes others uncomfortable, the admins will take action.<br>
<br>
So, that said, if someone wishes to make a post like this
in the future, it may be wise to run it past one of the
admins. On the mailing list, Kevin and I are the admins
(we're looking for others ;). In IRC, just ask (we're not
all opped all the time). We'd be glad to help you tune
your message to minimize disruption of the community and
maximize the achieving of your goals.<br>
<br>
Thank you,<br>
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<div style="font-size: 13px;"><font
size="3"><span style="font-weight:
bold;">Josh More</span></font> |
Senior Security Consultant - CISSP,
GIAC-GSLC Gold, GIAC-GCIH<br>
<span style="font-weight: bold;">Alliance
Technologies</span> | <a
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href="http://www.AllianceTechnologies.net"
style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">
www.AllianceTechnologies.net</a><br>
400 Locust St., Suite 840 | Des Moines,
IA 50309<br>
515.245.7701 | 888.387.5670 x7701<br>
<br>
Blog: Don't just blame the bad guys,
it's your fault too<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.alliancetechnologies.net/blogs/morej"
style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">http://www.alliancetechnologies.net/blogs/morej</a><br>
<br>
How are we doing? Let us know here:<br>
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<div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF762564"><font
color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:cialug-bounces@cialug.org">cialug-bounces@cialug.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:cialug-bounces@cialug.org">cialug-bounces@cialug.org</a>]
on behalf of Brian Wood [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:woodbrian77@gmail.com">woodbrian77@gmail.com</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 05, 2011 12:17<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:cialug@cialug.org">cialug@cialug.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Cialug] A little something for
everyone<br>
</font><br>
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<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">I'm looking to partner with
G-dly people willing to use the <br>
C++ Middleware Writer -- an on line code generator
that <br>
writes C++ marshalling code based on high-level user
input. <br>
In exchange for using the C++ Middleware Writer, I'll
donate <br>
18 hours/week for six months to their project. If you
aren't <br>
an orthodox Jew or pro-life Christian, you can still
get in on <br>
the action. If you refer someone to me for this, I'll
pay you <br>
$150/month for the first four months I work with them.<br
clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Brian Wood<br>
Ebenezer Enterprises<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://webEbenezer.net" target="_blank">http://webEbenezer.net</a><br>
(651) 251-9384<br>
<br>
<br>
"And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in
due season <br>
we shall reap if we do not lose heart. Therefore, as
we have <br>
opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to
those who are of <br>
the household of faith." Galatians 6:9-11<br>
<br>
<br>
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_______________________________________________
Cialug mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Cialug@cialug.org">Cialug@cialug.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://cialug.org/mailman/listinfo/cialug">http://cialug.org/mailman/listinfo/cialug</a>
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