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I am very sorry. This was supposed to be off list. Evidently there
is a bug in Thunderbird 3 where both "Reply" and "Reply List"
buttons send to the same place. <br>
<br>
Jeff<br>
<br>
On 3/5/2011 11:11 PM, Jeff Chapin wrote:
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Josh,<br>
<br>
Replying off list -- but I personally see no difference between
Barry's post, and one saying that he will only work with white
people (or African American), or straight people. Religion is not
really a matter of choice for many -- I could not 'choose' to
believe in religion any more than I could 'choose' to the color of
my skin. <br>
<br>
I'm less concerned that 4 of the 5 posts made by Brian Wood were
plugs for his project (and the fifth still had it prominently
displayed), than I am with the bigotry inherent in 2 of his 5
posts.<br>
<br>
I'll abide by your decisions, and I understand that as a
mailing-list only member of your lug (living in CF, it is hard to
attend meetings) my opinions carry little weight, but as a member
since 09/2005 of the mailing list, this is only the second time I
have seen a post deliberately exclusionary to one group of
people. This is not dirty laundry I want to keep drumming up in
the channel, but I felt you should know that at least one member
was made uncomfortable with intolerant topics like this. My
religious background has not come up on this mailing list before,
as I do not feel it is appropriate -- or anyone else's business.<br>
<br>
<br>
Wishing you all the best --<br>
Jeff<br>
<br>
On 3/5/2011 5:40 PM, Josh More wrote:
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<div style="">There has been a bit of discussion about this
post privately, and I wanted to address some things before
folks got back to work on Monday and began reacting en
masse.<br>
<br>
For many of us, it was unclear that the original post was
promoting an open source project. In fact, it looked a lot
like a commercial posting. However, after digging through
the linked page a bit, it became clear that the application
is free to use and the source is available. Thus, though it
triggered a "this is spam" response in many of us, I am not
comfortable declaring this post to be spam. After all, if
promoting an open source project that is not directly
Linux-related were an issue, a LOT of us would be in trouble
here. :)<br>
<br>
However, the faith issue is a problematic one. I've been
thinking about it for hours, and I think I've uncovered what
the fundamental issue here is. Our group is about open
source software and open source ideals. We tend to not
directly discuss the ideals very often, but they're there
nonetheless. I think that what bothered me the most about
this wasn't the clear faith-based slant, but the
segmentation of society. I believe that the intent here was
to say that original poster was willing to work on other
projects, but is unwilling to devote his personal time to
someone that does not share his personal beliefs. That's
fine. However, the "us vs them" where one side gets time
and support and the other side gets cash seems counter to
the inclusiveness of our group.<br>
<br>
From an administrative perspective, I will not be banning
Brian for spamming, as this seems to be less an issue of
spam and more an issue of a confusingly-worded promotion of
an open source project. However, I will ask that future
postings of this nature keep the following in mind:<br>
<br>
* Projects are promoted more effectively when it is clear
what the project does, how it is used and where the source
code may be downloaded. Use cases help here.<br>
<br>
* When offering your time to something, make mention of your
own skillset and what you bring to a project. I would
rather have 2h per week of someone highly skilled than 20h
per week of someone who is not. There are projects that are
benefited by people of all skill levels and those that are
not. <br>
<br>
* Start with a discussion about needs instead of just
offering time. It helps both the project maintainers and
those serving as resources to know up-front what is needed.
That way people are working to improve the project, not
working just to work.<br>
<br>
* While faith can be a very important part of the human
experience, recognize and accept that others may have faiths
of a different varieties and intensities than you do. This
group, in particular, is made of people who are intensely
Christian, Atheist and Pagan. We have a lot of people who
are Agnostic and we probably have many whose faiths of which
I know nothing. What we have in common is tolerance and
acceptance. While this post was not evangelical in nature,
it was far closer than we usually see here, and it tripped
some people's hot buttons. I recognize that we are a
self-managed group and I cannot set policy that goes against
group consensus, but my reading of general group consensus
is that there is a line between expressing one's faith as
part of daily life and doing so in an "in your face" sort of
way that makes other feel uncomfortable. If a discussion
crosses that line and makes others uncomfortable, the admins
will take action.<br>
<br>
So, that said, if someone wishes to make a post like this in
the future, it may be wise to run it past one of the
admins. On the mailing list, Kevin and I are the admins
(we're looking for others ;). In IRC, just ask (we're not
all opped all the time). We'd be glad to help you tune your
message to minimize disruption of the community and maximize
the achieving of your goals.<br>
<br>
Thank you,<br>
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<div style="font-size: 13px;"><font size="3"><span
style="font-weight: bold;">Josh More</span></font>
| Senior Security Consultant - CISSP,
GIAC-GSLC Gold, GIAC-GCIH<br>
<span style="font-weight: bold;">Alliance
Technologies</span> | <a
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style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">
www.AllianceTechnologies.net</a><br>
400 Locust St., Suite 840 | Des Moines, IA
50309<br>
515.245.7701 | 888.387.5670 x7701<br>
<br>
Blog: Don't just blame the bad guys, it's
your fault too<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.alliancetechnologies.net/blogs/morej"
style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">http://www.alliancetechnologies.net/blogs/morej</a><br>
<br>
How are we doing? Let us know here:<br>
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<div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF762564"><font
color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:cialug-bounces@cialug.org">cialug-bounces@cialug.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:cialug-bounces@cialug.org">cialug-bounces@cialug.org</a>]
on behalf of Brian Wood [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:woodbrian77@gmail.com">woodbrian77@gmail.com</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 05, 2011 12:17<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:cialug@cialug.org">cialug@cialug.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Cialug] A little something for everyone<br>
</font><br>
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<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">I'm looking to partner with G-dly
people willing to use the <br>
C++ Middleware Writer -- an on line code generator that
<br>
writes C++ marshalling code based on high-level user
input. <br>
In exchange for using the C++ Middleware Writer, I'll
donate <br>
18 hours/week for six months to their project. If you
aren't <br>
an orthodox Jew or pro-life Christian, you can still get
in on <br>
the action. If you refer someone to me for this, I'll
pay you <br>
$150/month for the first four months I work with them.<br
clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Brian Wood<br>
Ebenezer Enterprises<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://webEbenezer.net"
target="_blank">http://webEbenezer.net</a><br>
(651) 251-9384<br>
<br>
<br>
"And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due
season <br>
we shall reap if we do not lose heart. Therefore, as we
have <br>
opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those
who are of <br>
the household of faith." Galatians 6:9-11<br>
<br>
<br>
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_______________________________________________
Cialug mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Cialug@cialug.org">Cialug@cialug.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://cialug.org/mailman/listinfo/cialug">http://cialug.org/mailman/listinfo/cialug</a>
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