[Cialug]voip

Thu Dec 6 19:21:06 CST 2007

ROI is why you go with something 'small' about the size to produce
annually what you consume annually and net metering.  Then you are
buying and selling at the price you pay, ($.10 - $.15 / KWH) rather than
at the wholesale avoided price of $.03 / KWH.  It's a lot easier to make
it pay that way.  If you go with net metering and no batteries, etc. it
is a positive payoff, even around here.  OK, it's probably not 2 - 3
years, more like 6 - 10, but after that you electricity is 'free' other
than maintenance on the equipment.  It's sort of like owning a car that
is paid off.

Murray McKee 
Data Analyst
LI Data Modeling, Mapping, and Analysis
Wells Fargo Lending Information Systems - TIG (Technology Information
Group)
Mail: 1 Home Campus
MAC X2301-03G
Des Moines, IA 50328 
WORK (515)324-4689 Cell (515) 559-4390  FAX (515) 324-4452
Location: 800 S. Jordan Creek Parkway
West Des Moines, IA 50266
MurrayMcKee at WellsFargo.com 
"This message may contain confidential and / or privileged information.
If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the
addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose, or take any action based on
this message or any information herein.  If you have received this
message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail
and delete this message.  Thank you for your cooperation."

-----Original Message-----
From: cialug-bounces at cialug.org [mailto:cialug-bounces at cialug.org] On
Behalf Of Dave J. Hala Jr.
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 2:04 PM
To: Central Iowa Linux Users Group
Subject: RE: [Cialug]voip

I have a problem in principle with selling excess electricity back to
the utility. First of all, it makes me feel like I'm subsidizing a
regulated monopoly. Even the with small generator at 1.8kw, it needs to
be amortized over a 15-20 year period to get a return on the investment.

I would sell power back to the utility if they would subsidize the wind
generator to the point where I can get a 2-3 year ROI.

Small scale wind doesn't make financial sense. How I can justify
spending $83.00 a month to generate $35.00 a month worth the
electricity?  Can I say that I'm doing my part to reduce the carbon
impact?  I'd probably make a bigger impact by giving the money to some
environmental group or by getting rid of my electric hot water heater.

It seems to me that whenever a salesman is pushing the "green" solution,
its because they are trying to get you "do the right" thing because it
just doesn't make financial sense.

What makes sense is for our existing power plants to build more large
wind scale farms (that run linux) instead of us little guys adding
capacity at our expense.

:) Dave

On Thu, 2007-12-06 at 13:36 -0600, murraymckee at wellsfargo.com wrote:
> For a typical home / acreage owner the best deal is "net metering".
> ("Small" user with "small" generator)  Excess electricity generated 
> while use is low (say on a windy night while all the lights are turned
> off) goes back out on the grid as a credit.  Then when you need more 
> electricity that you're generating you use those credits to buy 
> electricity, rather than having to pay for it with money.
> 
> This works especially well with a wind system.  June, July, & August 
> are typically less windy months and the load is relatively high due to
A/C.
> So 'cheap' KWH (say $.10) generated during the winter and pushed onto 
> the grid are returned with expensive (say $.14) KWH during the summer.
> (Of course, if you had a solar system you'd get more KWH in the summer

> than winter, so in a combination system they compliment each other
well.
> 
> Of course, if you're trying to live clear off the grid, even with both

> solar and wind, you're going to need batteries and / or a generator 
> for some periods of time.  (Aside, both diesel and gas 'go stale' in 
> long term storage, unless kept at just above freezing temperatures, 
> gas evaporates leaving the 'varnish' behind and diesel jells up, so LP

> is best for an infrequently used fuel that is stored for an 
> indeterminate amount of time.)
> 
> If you just sell excess electricity to the grid they buy it not at the

> price you pay (wouldn't that be nice) but at the avoided cost or 
> generation, or their lowest cost source of electricity, or about $.03 
> per KWH.
> 
> Murray McKee
> Data Analyst
> LI Data Modeling, Mapping, and Analysis Wells Fargo Lending 
> Information Systems - TIG (Technology Information
> Group)
> Mail: 1 Home Campus
> MAC X2301-03G
> Des Moines, IA 50328
> WORK (515)324-4689  Cell (515) 559-4390  FAX (515) 324-4452
> Location: 800 S. Jordan Creek Parkway
> West Des Moines, IA 50266
> MurrayMcKee at WellsFargo.com
> "This message may contain confidential and / or privileged
information.
> If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the 
> addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose, or take any action based 
> on this message or any information herein.  If you have received this 
> message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail

> and delete this message.  Thank you for your cooperation."
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cialug-bounces at cialug.org [mailto:cialug-bounces at cialug.org] On 
> Behalf Of Daniel A. Ramaley
> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 9:36 AM
> To: Central Iowa Linux Users Group
> Subject: Re: [Cialug]voip
> 
> Hmm. I thought the 1.8 MW looked a bit off... if windmills were that 
> cheap, they'd be going up a lot faster than they are already. If i 
> could buy 1.8 MW of electrical generation capacity for only $15 000, i

> think that would be worth taking out a loan for and selling the excess

> to the power company.
> 
> How many kW hours does a "typical" residence use in a month, anyway?
> 
> On Thursday 06 December 2007 09:11, murraymckee at wellsfargo.com wrote:
> >I believe your calculations are off a bit.  I think you meant a 1.8 
> >KILOwatt turban would be $15,000.  If you want to generate 1.8  
> >MEGOwatts you're going to have to put in well over $1,000,000 and  
> >since the blades on will be longer than 50' you're going to need a  
> >tower in the 150' - 200' range.  The down side is that if you want a
> > 1.8 MW generator you're going to have to put your order in soon as  
> >the lead time for getting a construction crew and generator delivery

> >are both 24 - 36 months.
> >
> >Murray McKee
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: cialug-bounces at cialug.org [mailto:cialug-bounces at cialug.org] On

> >Behalf Of Dave J. Hala Jr.
> >Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 10:12 AM
> >To: Central Iowa Linux Users Group
> >Subject: Re: [Cialug]voip
> >
> >Ditch the diesel generator. Switch an lp/hydrogen generator.
> >
> >Don't laugh, I have 10,000w diesel generator. It won't run the ac but

> >it will run the furnace and a computer or two.
> >
> >LP is easier to deal with. Nissan was experimenting(when I left)with 
> >hydrogen fired forklifts, the fuel tank was made like a large thermos

> >Bottle in order to keep it cold enough(and high pressure) to keep it

> >in a liquid state. Lp is only ~200psi in order to keep it as a 
> >liquid.
> >
> >For $15,000 you can have a 1.8 megawatt wind generator with the 
> >inverter, 50ft tower and the electronics to tie it the grid at
240vac.
> >Compliment that with a $26,000 solar array and a $15,000 hydrogen 
> >generator. Get $5,000 worth the marine batteries.
> >
> >Instead of hooking it to the grid and thereby subsidizing your local 
> >coal burning power plant, build your own little power grid to power  
> >your stuff. Use the excess electricity to charge the batteries and to

> >produce hydrogen.  Store  the hydrogen in an lp tank. When there's no

> >sun, use the hydrogen to run the generator. You can also use the  
> >hydrogen to heat your house.
> >
> >This way the only thing you have to worry about is a lawn mower  
> >running over the coax cable that mediacom laid on the ground from the

> >pole to the house.
> >
> >:) Dave
> 
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dan Ramaley                            Dial Center 118, Drake
University
> Network Programmer/Analyst             2407 Carpenter Ave
> +1 515 271-4540                        Des Moines IA 50311 USA
> _______________________________________________
> Cialug mailing list
> Cialug at cialug.org
> http://cialug.org/mailman/listinfo/cialug
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cialug mailing list
> Cialug at cialug.org
> http://cialug.org/mailman/listinfo/cialug

_______________________________________________
Cialug mailing list
Cialug at cialug.org
http://cialug.org/mailman/listinfo/cialug