[Cialug] Apple and Intel

Wed Jun 8 11:21:54 CDT 2005

Very well put, and I'd like to add one thing. Even Linux is not going to 
survive on the backs of Zealots alone.

Bryan Baker wrote:

> While you're being that rabid about it, you might as well un-install 
> that nasty proprietary nVidia driver you know so much about getting 
> going on debian systems.
> ;-) I mean if it's proprietary it must be polluting that nice little 
> FSF cocoon you've woven yourself.
>
> I've preached the four freedoms myself and while I agree the 
> "movement" is noble sometimes you just need to get stuff done. I find 
> OSX and Apple's current regime to be a comfortable middle ground that 
> is helping to introduce Open Source (and quite a bit of Free) software 
> to a wider audience than our basements - to people who just want to 
> get stuff done. If you don't believe that Apple is playing nice, I'd 
> suggest looking over this page, and the fairly extensive list of 
> projects that they've opened up to the community. 
> http://developer.apple.com/darwin/ Many of these were internal 
> projects that they had NO obligation to share - Darwin Streaming 
> Server, ZeroConf, etc.
>
> Fanaticism: that's always the problem I end up having w/ the "pure" 
> FSF flag wavers is that they end up sounding like rabid street 
> preachers after a while, everybody just ignores them and goes on their 
> way. I respect that others want to remain "pure" but please stop 
> waving the GNU flag in my face. btw - I refuse to pre-pend GNU to 
> every mention of Linux.
>
> Sorry if this is coming off a little touchy, but I'm getting tired of 
> getting preached at, believe it or not I'm already in the choir.
>
> On Jun 8, 2005, at 10:45 AM, Theron Conrey wrote:
>
>> "Beside, a proprietary OS that can give me a real terminal window 
>> can't be all that bad, can it?"
>>
>> Yes.  Yes it can.
>>
>> Theron
>>
>>
>> Tony Bibbs wrote:
>>
>>> I disagree.  I'm still longing for an OS that has then flexibility 
>>> of linux with the sort of driver support found in windows..  OSX is 
>>> quickly becoming the middle ground.
>>>
>>> I'm guessing quite a few on this list would agree given all the Mac 
>>> laptops I saw at the last (and only) LUG meeting I attended this year.
>>>
>>> Beside, a proprietary OS that can give me a real terminal window 
>>> can't be all that bad, can it?
>>>
>>> --Tony
>>>
>>> Theron Conrey wrote:
>>>
>>>>  From a hardware perspective it's pretty interesting stuff but,
>>>> no matter what happens the situation remains the same.
>>>> OSX still isn't free, so the impact (hoepfully) will be minimal at 
>>>> best.
>>>>
>>>> Theron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> D. Joe Anderson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jun 07, 2005 at 10:35:02PM -0500, Bryan Baker wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 7, 2005, at 10:29 PM, Nathan C. Smith wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> So here's a stupid question - what kind of thing will keep me
>>>>>>>     from buying Mac OS and slapping it on any Intel box?  I
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> thought all the stuff that used to be in ROM no longer was. What 
>>>>>>> will distinguish an Apple from any other machine?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm betting they will have a hand at least in the mobo design, 
>>>>>> they  do a bunch of their own ASICs, etc. and they have been 
>>>>>> using  OpenFirmware - not BIOS, but that may change now, but I 
>>>>>> bet there'll  be other diff's - that said I give it a couple 
>>>>>> weeks before someone  comes out w/ a hack, but you can bet it 
>>>>>> won't get support.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That, and what this guy said (after you skip down past all the
>>>>> license flamewar cruft) in
>>>>>
>>>>> http://zgp.org/pipermail/linux-elitists/2005-June/011207.html
>>>>>
>>>>>    Mac OS X's demographic is precisely the opposite of those
>>>>>    with enough technical skill to hack and/or patch enough of
>>>>>    their operating system to make it run on non-Apple hardware.    
>>>>> Even if someone managed to make that work, and found a way
>>>>>    to hack in driver support, either through some Rube Goldberg
>>>>>    linux-driver-wrapper horseshit or other, it wouldn't be
>>>>>    terribly useful to terribly many people who leave their
>>>>>    basement on a regular basis.
>>>>>
>>>>> The "not [...] terribly many people" who would be interested in
>>>>> doing this are pretty much the Mac fans who inhabit Linux and
>>>>> other free OS mailing lists like this one--a minority of a
>>>>> minority.  Heck, I figure I probably know the majority of these
>>>>> people who live in Iowa ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> ie, not enough to affect their market significantly.
>>>>>
>>>>> outside of this, the Mac customers are either going to be the
>>>>> ricer-wannabees who might think the hack is cool, but who don't
>>>>> have the time/skill/whatever to actually apply it, and the
>>>>> people like the ones Valentine mentions above, who want their
>>>>> sealed-box to Just Work, they don't care how, and you can't make
>>>>> them care.  The main thing is that someone who does care, and who 
>>>>> does have
>>>>> the skill to apply the hacks isn't going to be able to hang out
>>>>> a shingle and go into business selling beige boxes that have
>>>>> been Macified.  The Clone Wars have already been fought, we know
>>>>> how that turned out, and that was before the DMCA.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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> Bryan Baker
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