[Cialug] Re: MS
Dave J. Hala Jr.
cialug@cialug.org
Thu, 04 Nov 2004 15:44:52 -0600
Its a good analogy. :)
On Thu, 2004-11-04 at 15:17, Chris Hilton wrote:
> Yea... I don't think anyone would wanna take the fuel injection off for
> a carb; at least not anyone who depends on their car ;). Is that even
> possible?
>
> I don't care so much either, except that it gets harder and harder to
> fix friends and families windows troubles; and if they just had
> Linux/BSD or even Solaris I'd have a better shot at fixing their
> troubles (NOTE: I know next to nothing about Solaris).
>
> Oh well; you live, you fail to learn, you continue to fail.
>
> On Thu, 2004-11-04 at 13:03 -0600, Dave J. Hala Jr. wrote:
> > I'm kinda at the point where I'm thinking like: Who really cares if
> > Linux competes or displaces MS on the desktop. Linux continues to
> > grow,evolve and improve, so who really cares? I'm gonna pick the best
> > tool for the job and thats what I'm gonna use.
> >
> > I do my development on a Linux WS, and my testing on windows. (since
> > that what my customers use) Yeah, it would be cool if my customers all
> > used Linux workstations, but its just not practical... It would be kinda
> > like taking the fuel injection off my Impala and replacing it with a
> > Holley carburetor so that I can a get a few more horsepower on the top
> > end...
> >
> > On Thu, 2004-11-04 at 12:35, Chris Hilton wrote:
> > > Having used old versions of Netscape, I'm not terribly fond of it. But
> > > at least it didn't leave your computer useless after visiting a nasty
> > > website.
> > >
> > > On Thu, 2004-11-04 at 18:18 +0000, timwilson011@mchsi.com wrote:
> > > > I don't have as much of a problem with Windows being a "monopoly" as I do other
> > > > MS products. Let's face it, for PCs, there wasn't much of an alternative when
> > > > Windows 3.0 came out (I'm just focusing on PCs, there were other platforms, but
> > > > those had software monopolies as well). Sure, there was DesqView, GoldTree, and
> > > > other add-ons, but something that at least purported to be an OS? Not really.
> > > > Was Win3 an OS? No, but at least it was better than some of the other add-ons.
> > > > The average user probably didn't need to leave Windows once they were in it
> > > > (unless they had a DOS-based app). As for the actual underlying OS, DOS was
> > > > pretty much it. There were different flavors of DOS, but in the end, they were
> > > > very much the same. Besides, people wanted ease of use (which some translate as
> > > > GUI), and DOS wasn't it. So it didn't matter that much if Flavor B had some
> > > > feature that MS' flavor didn't. NT and OS/2 were still not quite ready for
> > > > prime-time, so that left Windows 3.0.
> > > >
> > > > One of the problems I have with MS is the cut-throat tactics of the licensing
> > > > agreements with the PC makers. Word was no better than Word Perfect, yet MS had
> > > > one thing going for them. Every PC maker shipped PCs with Windows. MS could
> > > > (and did) dictate to them, "if you want Windows, you'll have to ship these
> > > > products too, but we'll make you a great deal on both." I once was told that
> > > > someone at Gateway told a customer that Office cost Gateway about $5. Yet to go
> > > > out and buy it off the shelf, it was closer to $500. Why would I (as a
> > > > consumer) buy a computer with nothing on it, go out and buy Windows, Word
> > > > Perfect, and Lotus 1-2-3, and spend at least $400 more than if I bought a
> > > > computer with Windows and Office?
> > > >
> > > > Then there's the "embrace and extend" philosophy. Let's rip off someone else's
> > > > product, change it slightly, ship it with every copy of Windows, and put the
> > > > competitors out of business. I still hear people saying that Netscape/Mozilla
> > > > isn't a superior browser, and IE isn't a bad browser, there are bugs found in IE
> > > > because that's what people are focusing on. While the latter may be true, I
> > > > still have issues with it. MS is the largest software company in the world, and
> > > > all they seem to be concerned with is extending their empire. Hey, here's an
> > > > idea, make the current products secure before taking on more! In the browser
> > > > example, the source code that started Netscape is the same code that started IE.
> > > > So why is it that even some of the basic stuff (such has HTML rendering) is
> > > > still buggy in IE?
> > > >
> > > > Bottom line, MS still thinks of themselves as that little software company in
> > > > Redmond, instead of a global software corporation. Small companies can get away
> > > > with a lot more than larger companies can, but MS still attempts to do the same
> > > > things as smaller companies, and somehow manages to get away with it. I don't
> > > > think it is a particular presidential administration's fault, I think a lot of
> > > > the companies just were too afraid to go up against MS. Remember the frivolous
> > > > lawsuits of "look-and-feel"? No one would think about doing that today.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Tim W.
> > > > > Jeff Davis wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I didn't say they weren't responsible, I said they are rarely offered
> > > > > > an alternative. You suggest this is because the consumer is not
> > > > > > shopping around.
> > > > > > I ask you then, at which store is the average person getting offered a
> > > > > > machine running linux?
> > > > > > What dealership do they need to visit?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chris Hilton wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> That's true. And if you shop for a car by buying from Ford without
> > > > > >> shopping any other dealerships you have the same problem. It's hardly
> > > > > >> fair to say the consumer isn't responsible because they aren't
> > > > > >> knowledgable enough to know where to look for alternatives.
> > > > > >> I suppose I forgot to blaim business as well, many people buy what their
> > > > > >> business uses.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > I think this gets into the shortcomings of a completely free market. The
> > > > > strengths of a free market rest on the assumptions that the consumer
> > > > > base is informed. But, it all kinda breaks down if you assume that the
> > > > > consumer base can be easily misinformed. In this case, people shopping
> > > > > for computers are not informed about the concept of an OS. They know
> > > > > about brands hardware (to a limited degree) and resellers. 'Windows' is
> > > > > synonomous with 'computer'; it is not an OS to them. Thus, it is
> > > > > impossible for them to ask the question, "What OS does it run?" So they
> > > > > physically/logically can't make an informed decision. This is why the MS
> > > > > monopoly is bad - not because they own so much of the brainshare, but
> > > > > because they use that ownership to stop people from being able to make
> > > > > informed decisions.
> > > > >
> > > > > The car market simile breaks down because it doesn't exhibit that
> > > > > symptom of the problem. Sure, the customer didn't do their homework.
> > > > > But, MS is banking on that, and encouraging that. Car dealerships don't
> > > > > have that luxury. They can't blot the other dealership signs from the
> > > > > sky so you can't see them as you drive by.
> > > > >
> > > > > My $.02.
> > > > >
> > > > > Chris
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Dave J. Hala Jr. <dave@osis.us>
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