Amen<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/20/05, <b class="gmail_sendername">Stuart Thiessen</b> <<a href="mailto:sthiessen@passitonservices.org">sthiessen@passitonservices.org</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>On Oct 20, 2005, at 18:21, David Champion wrote:<br><br>> I get functionality updates from MS to things like IE and Media<br>> Player. I don't use either of those much because the suck, but I<br>> didn't have to pay for an OS update to get them.
<br>><br><br>Neither do MacOS X users. Same difference.<br><br>> I pay for the MS OS at home because I want it to play games that are<br>> only available on that platform. If I could get those games to run<br>> reliably on Linux, I would. Other than that I have no reason to need
<br>> or want Windows at home. Hopefully either game developers will start<br>> releasing more Linux versions, or WinXP will be sufficient for those<br>> needs for a while, and I won't have to buy Vista.<br>><br>
> p.s. Get your Quake 4 Linux Client :<br>> <a href="http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/20/">http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/20/</a><br>> 1831234&tid=112&tid=10<br>><br>> Either way, I have to pay for Windows, and you have to pay for MacOSX,
<br>> so the amount really just accounting.<br>><br>>>> MacOSX is a nifty / pretty *nix, but it's:<br>>>><br>>>> a. Proprietary (read today's comments on /. regarding OO.o and<br>>>> Carbon)
<br>>> ooh, it's on slashdot so uh, it must be true.<br>><br>> Oh. So there's already a MacOSX native port of OO.o 2.0 that nobody<br>> knows about? I don't know all of the semantics, but if I understand<br>
> correctly there's an ugly(?) X11 port, but the native OSX port is a<br>> bit behind.<br>><br><br>There is OpenOffice.org on X11 or NeoOffice using a Java approach. Both<br>are good. NeoOffice has a better interface with the OS.
<br><br>> I don't currently see the comment there, it may have gotten modded<br>> down below my threshold. Anyone with an opinion on /. is obviously a<br>> troll. ;)<br>><br>> Apple chose to use a proprietary WM / envirionment / whatever you want
<br>> to call Cocoa / Carbon... and Mac users have to wait for things like<br>> OO.o to be ported to it. I'm sure there are benefits to it, but it's<br>> no fun to point those out! :)<br><br>True. But that is what they based their business model on ... the
<br>interface. The nuts and bolts of the OS is opensource (Darwin). Apple<br>like any other vendor simply add its unique software and look on it.<br>Maybe it's not pure open source, but so far, I have to say I prefer Mac
<br>OS X to most Linux desktops I have worked with so far. For a GUI<br>interface to the operating system, Mac OS X is much more friendly than<br>Linux right now. Yet at the same time, I can tinker with the works<br>underneath using the same tools that a Linux/BSD person would use.
<br><br>><br>>>> b. Not OSS (would follow a. then, wouldn't it?)<br>>> uh, no. you loose, thanks for playing. there are elements of the OS<br>>> that are totally proprietary (IIRC I think several Linux distros
<br>>> include some non-free tech) but there is a core of tech (OpenDarwin)<br>>> that is roughly equivalent to a normal BSD/Linux that IS definitely<br>>> OSS - by OSDL standards. You're just wrong there Dave.
<br>><br>> You are correct that some Linux distros, including Mandriva, do<br>> contain some closed code. For instance, they distribute the<br>> proprietary nVidia drivers. However, I can use the free<br>><br>
> OpenDarwin is the commodity part of the OS, that has little to<br>> differentiate itself from BSD or Linux. Without the proprietary stuff,<br>> there's no reason for me to want OSX.<br><br>People could use OpenDarwin and build a better GUI on top of it if they
<br>wanted to. Or run it with KDE or Gnome.<br><br>><br>> MacOSX != OpenDarwin.<br><br>I think it is a container relationship. Mac OS X contains OpenDarwin. I<br>don't think anyone says it is the same thing.<br><br>
><br>> Saying that MacOSX is a little bit proprietary is like saying someone<br>> is a little bit dead.<br><br>Uh, Oh, Black and white thinking. If we wanted to talk about a<br>continuum from proprietary to open source, we could say that Microsoft
<br>is way over on the proprietary side, Apple is more in the middle, and<br>Linux is on the open source side of things. Honestly, I don't mind them<br>having something that pays their bills if they do a good job in making
<br>the computer work for me. I mean compared to Microsoft, all the<br>development tools are included to build for MacOSX. That is something<br>in their favor in my opinion.<br><br>><br>> Apple does a lot for OSS - like the Rendezvous / zeroconf thing. But
<br>> they also do a lot of proprietary and downright unfriendly things. Ask<br>> any one of the many people who've been sued by them.<br>><br><br>What company is perfect? (aside from WordPerfect .... ha ha).<br>
<br>>>> Uh, end rant.<br>>> uh, end rant rant.<br>><br>> End? That's no fun!<br>><br>> I would argue that most of the useablity issues remaining with a Linux<br>> desktop system relate to issues like what we were fighting at the
<br>> meeting last night with Dave Swagler's Gateway laptop... which ties<br>> back to my comments earlier this week with hardware vendor support for<br>> Linux drivers, or at least providing specifications for someone to
<br>> develop them. (BTW, Barry got the Broadcom wifi driver loaded, but<br>> it's not connecting to the WAP yet).<br><br>Not just hardware driver support, but just configuration issues too. I<br>have to be honest ... I have tried to use Linux at home. The command
<br>line didn't faze me much, but the GUI interface leaves a lot to be<br>desired in configuring the system. Ordinary users want to be able to<br>set everything up easily without ever having to go to the command line.<br>
The challenge with Linux is that there is no clear indicator how to<br>perform those tasks. That caused me to lose motivation to have Linux<br>on my desktop before because my wife and kids want something they can<br>follow. When I had to replace a stolen tower, I just decided that Mac
<br>OS X has what I was looking for in a user experience that still allows<br>me to work with Unix based tools, etc. I really recommend that the LUG<br>seriously consider how to educate the public on how to _use_ the<br>
desktop on Linux so they can get more comfortable.<br><br>><br>> Installing Linux on hardware that's a year or so old is usually fairly<br>> simple. It's new / exotic cutting edge hardware that causes headaches,<br>
> unfortunately.<br>><br>> Once a Linux system is up and running, it's very user friendly. I have<br>> had non-technical people using a Linux desktop for web browsing, word<br>> processing and other common tasks, and they often don't even notice
<br>> that it's Linux until I point it out. My fairly non-technical parents<br>> were using a Linux desktop system for about a year for web surfing and<br>> word processing.<br><br>This is true ... until they need to configure the system in some way.
<br>Then I don't consider it quite as user friendly. My experience so far.<br>Maybe the new distros have improved some things since SuSE 9.3.<br>><br>> Using a USB drive, or my digital camera, or my MP3 player in Mandriva
<br>> Linux is just as easy as it is in Windows or I would assume a Mac. I<br>> plug them in, and they work.<br>><br>> In the end, we all have the choice to use whatever OS we want (as long<br>> as we can afford it)... and I personally think it's great that we have
<br>> so many choices. For instance if buying a Mac Mini will keep your wife<br>> happy, then by all means, buy one. But this is ostensibly a Linux<br>> F/OSS User Group, so I think it is our responsibility to support the
<br>> F/OSS alternatives to proprietary systems.<br><br>Fortunately, many F/OSS work well in a Mac environment so it is a good<br>place to promote it as a intermediate stage. Fink is another good tool<br>to bring F/OSS to the Mac platform.
<br><br>I'm a fan of Linux in a server environment, but I'm not yet sold on<br>Linux for the desktop. :) I will be happy to be convinced some day<br>otherwise. :)<br><br>Stuart<br><br>> _______________________________________________
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